Curse

Trylo · Apr 11, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

unlike what EVERYONE else says, i really like the idea as it would make the game more fun and balanced, and i too have threated over the ra/as build there could be. I became and ele/ran just for th epet too, and i was quite pleased with Ferocious Strike {E} giving me a +4 energy bonus every 8 secs, seemed to almost remedy my fireballs and give me xtra energy for larger 25e spells. BUT when compared to a ranger gaining up to +8energy i feel pitiful especiialy when i have invested the same amount of point in BM as they have and the same amount in ES! plz change this Anet!

D Fault · Apr 12, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

Actually ranger-rituals are affected by expertise. I don't know about ritualists though.

I'll post this again seeing as everyone seems to have missed it.

Ritualist binding rituals are affected by expertise.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 12, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

I became and ele/ran just for th epet too, and i was quite pleased with Ferocious Strike {E} giving me a +4 energy bonus every 8 secs, seemed to almost remedy my fireballs and give me xtra energy for larger 25e spells. BUT when compared to a ranger gaining up to +8energy i feel pitiful especiialy when i have invested the same amount of point in BM as they have and the same amount in ES! plz change this Anet!

Dude, that's how it's SUPPOSED to be. That's like saying you take a Monk secondary and complaining that your're not healing as well as a Monk because Divine Healing is giving Monks too much of an advantage in healing. Or complaining that you dont hit as hard as a Warrior primary with an axe when you're a non Warrior primary. It's just ridiculous what you're asking.

Why the hell do you expect to be as good a Beast Master as a Ranger when you're an Elementalist? It's called a secondary for a reason, meaning it's not your Primary focus in skills.

dgb · Apr 12, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cce

To explain this proposal, let's compare Experitse with what I think is
the "next best" primary, Divine Favor.

Assuming a monk with 10+1 divine favor and 11+2 healing prayers, Orson
heals for 63 plus extra healing of 35 for the divine favor bonus for a
combined total of 98 healing. Hence, the divine favor bonus accounts
for 36% of the healing. At 16 divine favor and 15 healing, the bonus
gets as high as 39%, but this is as good as it gets. For a great many
monk skills, the efficiency bonus is much less, consider skills like
heal party in which the bonus only affects the monk. Finally, this
bonus is limited to only monk spells (not to signets or mesmer enchants
cast by the monk, for example).

With with a Ranger, even at 8 expertise, 2en is saved on 5en skills,
giving a "low end" efficency bonus of 40%. It only gets better from
there: at 11 expertise, pin-down (15en) is 15-8/15 or 46% more efficient
and for things like dust trap (25en) expertise tops out at 65%
efficiency. What is even more enticing is that this bonus applies to
almost every energy-based Warrior, Assassin skills, and Ritualist spirit
invocation.

Have you ever heard of a boon-prot? I'd say at least 75% of my healing is generated from divine favour/DF based skills.

Trylo · Apr 12, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

ok well im comparing ES to Expertise which is unfair, but you kinda missed my point. thats ok though. not really but ok.

i pose you with a question:
Who do you think SHOULD be better with energy management, and ele or a ranger?

(IMO ele, obviously)

Who do you think IS better with energy management?

(A ranger with expertise even though an ele could have the same points invested in ES)

Expertise = built in elemental attunement. just not for spells haha

Peewee · Apr 12, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

To those who said pets cant do any dmg anyway, i quote '30-40 dmg even with skills' you are really rather mistaken. I can do 130+ with a pet skill. The biggest problem with pets is their inteligence imo. I agree that experitse seems to make up for the ranger high nrg skill usage, rather than be a bonus, and therefore rather impedes /R builds.

Goonter · Apr 12, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

This idea would require a large overhall of the system. (I think)
Thats its biggest flaw.

The x/R has Wilderness Survival and thats about it. Though there are alternatives, (Ive had suprising success with a bow wielding interrupting elementalist and applying conditions with him too) they just aint as practical as a expertise ranger. So,... big deal.

To be honest I like your idea. (Make expertise less benefual and make ranger skills cheaper) It seems fair and logical, if only for the fact that non spell skills need to be balance with expertise. Plus, like you say, it would open a few doors for the ranger secondary.

I think its a good idea, but like a lot of good ideas that come and go, its asking for a lot.
Maybe when GuildWars 2 comes out...

Nevin · Apr 12, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

I'm fine with it. Keep expertise the way it is; Its not like rangers are over powered. It can't be exploited either, even if you were ranger primary any secondary like warrior or assassin would be taking a low blow when compared to a an assassin or warrior primary.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 12, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

ok well im comparing ES to Expertise which is unfair, but you kinda missed my point. thats ok though. not really but ok.

i pose you with a question:
Who do you think SHOULD be better with energy management, and ele or a ranger?

(IMO ele, obviously)

Who do you think IS better with energy management?

(A ranger with expertise even though an ele could have the same points invested in ES)

Expertise = built in elemental attunement. just not for spells haha

You're going off topic. Elementalist's energy problems have nothing to do with Ranger Expertise. Keep Elementalist issues separate from other classes.

Expertise is only better energy management if you're using non spells. Energy Storage gives you more energy that you can use for any skill. You can't really compare the two attributes, they both have pros and cons. But you're taking one pro and comparing it to a con, which isnt a fair comparision at all.

NatalieD · Apr 12, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

I think people are overreacting to the proposal. It's not like */R would suddenly become overpowered if the skills were made a bit more affordable to non-Experts.

The real problem is the granularity of energy costs. A 10e cost can't be adjusted downwards except by halving it, and a 5e skill can only go down if it becomes a signet. So the proposal is basically unworkable, barring a basic change to energy costs in Guild Wars.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 12, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

It's not like */R would suddenly become overpowered if the skills were made a bit more affordable to non-Experts.

Overpowered? No. But it's asking for a secondary to be comparable to a primary. I mean should a secondary monk be as good as a primary monk? In some ways it should and some ways it shouldnt.

Right now it's pretty balanced. If you're using ranger skills and you're not a ranger primary, the tradeoff is the higher energy cost. That's fine. Just like how secondary monk skills will never heal as much as a primary monk with Divine Favour or warrior secondaries wont do as much damage as warrior primaries.

NatalieD · Apr 12, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Overpowered? No. But it's asking for a secondary to be comparable to a primary. I mean should a secondary monk be as good as a primary monk? In some ways it should and some ways it shouldnt.

Right now it's pretty balanced. If you're using ranger skills and you're not a ranger primary, the tradeoff is the higher energy cost.

And if the OP's proposal were implemented... the tradeoff would still be the higher energy cost. It just wouldn't be quite as much higher.

Anarki · Apr 12, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

You're wrong. Heal Other and Orison are unaffected because they're spells. A binding ritual is not a spell. Anything that's not a spell is affected by Expertise.

Then why are there so many rangers out there running with necro drain hp skills?

Jenosavel · Apr 12, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarki

Then why are there so many rangers out there running with necro drain hp skills?

You've just answered your own question, sir. Expertise affects non-spell skills. The necro hp skill that rangers run around with is a touch skill, not a spell. Therefore it is affected by Expertise.

Trylo · Apr 12, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

one again someone has posted without reading my full comment...

i said it was unfair, but i am seriously considering ra primaries just for the expertise and then 12 in the second class such as a monk. They CAN get up to 32+12+5 max energy!!!! thats 49 energy with 3 pips regen.... i mean thats only 1 energy every 3 secs less than casters, they get amazing stances in expertise (like reflexes and stuff...) and any skill (Smiting is a big one has a few skills) would be easy with 14 expertise... the possibilites! and yet conformity rules over me again somehow... RANGERS = BOWS! uh buddy with 32 max energy and +3regen i think i can manage with some skills like meteor shower, especially since casters only get 30 energy start (but +4). BUT they get +10AL and +30 vs eles, ill take that over 1 pip wouldnt you? i think theres gunna bea revolution of rangers soon.... o what fun.

ya be mean about my thoughts w/e, but im serious if ppl actually figure out how amazing expertise is its a wasted class...

NatalieD · Apr 12, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Trylo, you know Expertise doesn't work on spells, right?

Trylo · Apr 12, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

yes i do, and i am making a pretty big stretch between them, but there are a few very usefull skills in each caster class that i would actually think about using (ie, Smite, Holy Strike, Bane Sig, Sig of Judgement, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Trolls, Rez) which would be a full expertise worthy skills!

or ya i know i am doing some funky things and stretchs!

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 12, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

but there are a few very usefull skills in each caster class that i would actually think about using (ie, Smite, Holy Strike, Bane Sig, Sig of Judgement, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Trolls, Rez) which would be a full expertise worthy skills!

or ya i know i am doing some funky things and stretchs!

Umm I really have no idea what point you're trying to prove....but why did you include Dodge, LR, and Trolls when you were referring to useful skills in CASTER classes?

EDIT: Ok I think you were talking about your skillbar right?

Also a few usuable caster skills that can be used under Expertise hardly makes it unfair. And yes you are making a realllly big stretch here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarki

Then why are there so many rangers out there running with necro drain hp skills?

And yeah, if you look at the necro touch skills, you'd realize that are listed as skills. Why else would Touch Rangers be usuable at all?

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 13, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

When it comes to the energy saving it is fine the way it is but when it comes to what it effects then there has to be change. First make it do what it says it does and nothing more nor less, second maybe change it so it only has an impact on ranger skills. Anyone that goes x/R should pick it for what it can offer. e/r, me/r, n/r and mo/r can use marksmanship and use a bow so they do more damage with a bow while they nuke, dominate, hex or heal/prot than they could with a staff. Of course this would come at a cost of not gaining the potential benefits a weapon suited to their primary profession. They could use beast mastery to get themselves a nice tank to help protect them. I use a W/R to use skills like apply poison to my sword and lightning reflexes to get the increase attack speed with 75% evation. Sure reflexes doesn't last as long without expertise but the bow has a much slower attack rate than a sword does anyway so it shouldn't last as long. Thats where the balance is.

Come on now, it's been mentioned here that it's not fair that expertise reduces the energy consumed for certain skills more than ele skills can reduce the amount of energy required to cast certain spells. Ele's energy saving skills + energy storage (giving triple the max energy of a ranger) + the 4 energy regen that rangers lack (only have three) is > expertise. However the ele spells cost more energy on average making the whole equation = .

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 13, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

First make it do what it says it does and nothing more nor less, second maybe change it so it only has an impact on ranger skills.

Umm NO.

Quote:

I use a W/R to use skills like apply poison to my sword and lightning reflexes to get the increase attack speed with 75% evation.

Dude, if you're using Lightning Reflexes on a warrior, you clearly have no clue at all. In fact, your whole post lacks logic or any sense with no argument to back it up. Please stop posting.